13 replies to this topic

[k1ller]

Another topic about languages again. When most Europeans learn other European languages they are often very similar to their own. Here's an example. Take an English sentence "Attack is the best defence".

Slovenian
Napad
je
najboljsa
obramba

Ok, that is very clear. Attack = napadenie, is = je, najboljsa = best ("better" in Russian = больше = bol'she => naj-boljsa = "best" in Slovenian), obramba = defence. So let's see the same sentence in Russian:

Russian transliteration
Napadenie
javljaetsja
luchshij
oborony

Napadenie = napad = attack, javljaetsja = ok this is russian, luchshij = ok this is russian, oborony = obramba = defence. Although different in typing the pronounciation is close to Slovenian.

German
Angriff
ist
am besten
Verteidigung

So this is half English? Angriff = ok this is German, ist = is, am besten = best, Verteidigung = ok this is German.

Finnish
Hyökkäys
on
paras
puolustus

Significatly different language, yet quite easy to see the similarities to other languages in this example. Attack = hyökkäys, is = on, best = paras, defence = puolustus. Very straightforward translation and it's correctly translated word-by-word.

There are no familiar words in Russian, German or English for Finns. I think Slovenes would recognize at least the words "napadenie" and "obramba" from Russian. Russian would recognize words "napad" and "najboljsa" from Slovenian. Germans would know words "ist" and "am besten" from English.

Then take the combination of these and you'll get Polish language. Many European languages are equally similar.

Polish
Atak
jest
najlepsze
obrona

[NekiNeznanec]

I study languages so I'm not talking blind here.

Most european languages have same roots. They are called indo-euoropean languages and they include most languages from Portuguese on west all the way to indian on east.
The more nations got apart, the more languages differ.(It's all logic) So Of course we can find obvious similarities between languages.It's nothing new for you here I hope. The interesting stuff comes when linguistics want to know how, why and when languages began to differ in specifics.

I'm specialising in slavic languages although I want to study english after too.

Proverbs are often the same in nimber of languages. Nowdays english is the leading languages so nations translate a lot of english phrases directly into their languages, which I find very disturbing. I have noticed that even "educated" ppl on TV use these phrases instead of slovenian ones. Mostly those reporters can be found at sports section. I've spotted numerous disturbing translated phrases.
Example:
English reporters use this phrase in football:
What a golden opportunity. I've heard some cheap slovenian reporter say: Kakšna zlata priložnost! - which means EXACTLY the same, like slovenian language doesn't have any phrases of its own.
Ok I guess some ppl would say that it is good because languages will get more and more alike. But language is an important part of culture. Never forget that.

PS. @k1ller Polish

Atak
jest
najlepsze
obrona

It's Najlepszą obroną jest atak

[NanO]

Neki, try romanian language.

Romanian:

Atacul - Attack
este - is
cea mai buna - the best
aparare - defence

[k1ller]

Neki, try romanian language.

Romanian:

Atacul - Attack
este - is
cea mai buna - the best
aparare - defence

But that is 50% same as any other European language. Weird thing is that concept of "best" needs three words (in English it's two if you count "the best" and in Finnish just one word "paras").

What does "cea" mean? What does "mai" mean? What does "buna" mean? Not very difficult to guess though - and Google translate (http://translate.google.com/) confirmed that assumption. Cea = particle, mai = more, buna = good. "The most good". In Japanese I think they say "1st good" (ichiban) - for example Ichiban Sushi.

[shaines]

thats a nice articel k1ller, but i think the most midde eurpean languages are quite same themselves and of course very similar to english too.

btw:
you have to look much years ago to the roman rich what ruled all over the Mediterranean...
so it´s quite logical that the languages are similar to each other.
only exceptions are in a few lands which were ruled by other languages for example russian in east-europe.
dont know if its fits to the topic but i wanted to say that

[NanO]

Cea mai - in romanian is an expression of Absolute superlative -> http://en.wikipedia....ute_superlative

[LemmingGrumpy]

In Japanese I think they say "1st good" (ichiban) - for example Ichiban Sushi.

"Ichiban" literally means "number one"
ichi = one
ban ~= number (well, not really, it is akin to a "counter")

The idea of "goodness" is not built into the word: "ichiban warui" = the worst

Note that they have another way of saying "number one" or "first" which is "dai ichi", though the nuance is different.

@ Neki: if you study languages, could you enlighten us on the true origin of Euskera, the basque language? The locals around me are so fuckin high on their supposed uniqueness that I would love to have something to shut them up

[NekiNeznanec]

btw:
you have to look much years ago to the roman rich what ruled all over the Mediterranean...
so it´s quite logical that the languages are similar to each other.
only exceptions are in a few lands which were ruled by other languages for example russian in east-europe.
dont know if its fits to the topic but i wanted to say that

Well acutally this goes even further back where old greek, italic, celtic and germanic languages were more alike than slavic-baltic languages, which were similar to eastern languages (especifically old iranian and indian). Indian language for example was more similar to the slavic-baltic languages. Some basic example: sto (hundred in slovenian) is similar to satem in old iranian. Latine word was centum.

[NekiNeznanec]

@ Neki: if you study languages, could you enlighten us on the true origin of Euskera, the basque language? The locals around me are so fuckin high on their supposed uniqueness that I would love to have something to shut them up

Sorry, but they kind of are unique because their language is the only one in Europe known to exist here even before indo-european languages "invade" europe. You could say that basquw language is the one true west european language . It's hard to put it anywhere else cause we can't make a comparison to other languages.

PS: @TupaC: Romanian is a language that is the most similar(structurally speaking) to its source (latine) only that it sounds a lot different because of the neighbour languages I guess. So you could say it has evolved less than others.

[Xevax Tavax]

It's good that besides Hungarian, Polish is my other mother tongue. Otherwise I wouldn't understand k1ller's logic, because Hungarian is totally twisted... (it's not an indoeuropean language anyway)

Attack is the best defence => A legjobb védekezés a támadás.

A legjobb - the best
Védekezés - defence
A támadás - the attack

I can't understand our grammar, really, but the "be" verb is often missing from the sentences. Also I've heard that the structure of the suffixes and pronouns is closer to japanese than to anything else. But I can't verify that, Finnish should be a little similar too, as we're in one language group.

Regarding Euskera, I recently read that it had a strong impact on Spanish language, especially in terms of pronounciation. Spanish words have their consonants separated, so they can be spoken very fast - and this is something, that comes from basque.

[b00bs]

PS. @k1ller Polish

Atak
jest
najlepsze
obrona

It's Najlepszą obroną jest atak

IMO correct polish should be:
Napad
jest
najlepsza
obrona


Here is lithuanian, most archaic indo-european language:
Puolimas
yra
geriausia
gynyba

funny similarity:
puolustus(fin. defence) - puolimas (lith. atack)


btw:

A 2004 analysis of MtDNA in a Lithuanian population revealed that Lithuanians are close to (Indo-European) and Finno-Ugric-speaking populations of Northern Europe. Y-chromosome SNP haplogroup analysis showed Lithuanians to be closest to Latvians,Estonians and Finnish people.
Genetic research revealed that Lithuanians and Latvians are much more related to Finnish than Estonians.

yeah maska, dirty lithuanians are almost same as u

But language is an important part of culture. Never forget that.

And don't forget that culture is created in "streets", not in some "languagepreserver"'s office, those idiots fuckedup language so much that i can't even use/understand cellphone/ms.windows/ms.office with lituanian menu.

For example they say we can't use "Monitorius"(Computer Monitor) so they invented new word - "Vaizduoklis", which is close to word "Vaiduoklis"("ghost" in eng.) , or we can't use "Laptopas" and they invented word "Skreitinukas" which doesn't have any meaning to 99.9% of lithuanians.

[koti]

Correct Polish

Atak jest najlepszą obroną.

or

Najlepszą obroną jest atak. (this one is more used, better grammar and understaning)

Napad is used for ex. in crime scenes,or you can say "napad" like "atak" on another country.

(Assault?)Attack with gun on shop.

Napad z bronia w ręku na sklep.

but in this discussion like booby said

Napad jest najlepszą obroną - but noone will use this phrase

Polish is twisted

[shaines]

Correct German

Angriff
ist
am besten
Verteidigung

correct:
Angriff
ist
die beste
Verteidugung

It´s because of our bad grammar rules....
at "die beste" you have to change the gender of the word and the instance of the word...
thats because german grammar is so bad for non-german.

[Ghost]

For example they say we can't use "Monitorius"(Computer Monitor) so they invented new word - "Vaizduoklis", which is close to word "Vaiduoklis"("ghost" in eng.) , or we can't use "Laptopas" and they invented word "Skreitinukas" which doesn't have any meaning to 99.9% of lithuanians.

So sad. For example many Finns also don't like language preservation, but in the end they'll probably appreciate that we don't have to talk about "monitors" and "printers" mangled to Finnish pronounciation.

Here are the words:
English = "Finnished" = Real Finnish word
Monitor = Monitori = Näyttö (derived from "näyttää" (display, present))
Laptop = Läppäri (nice word, though) = Kannettava (derived from "kantaa" (carry))

Then for example we don't have any "good" "Finnished" word for "mobile phone". We have 100x better word "kännykkä", which was invented by Nokia when they started manufacturing mobile phones.

So, Finns could also tech talk with 100% of the words derived from English, but luckily we've survived and we can invent better words for everything new.

PS. Apparently those who discuss about the right form of translation to "attack is the best defense" probably don't have the proverb in their language. Obviously it's possible to translate, but if it's a proverb there's rarely different forms of writing it